Training His Thoughts

Lucky & Co, Rijssen, The Netherlands

With Mike Portnoy on the drums for Neal Morse’s Testimony tour, it was the ultimate opportunity for us to continue our conversation about Dream Theater’s latest release, Train Of Thought, which started in Issue 30 prior to the release date. Thankfully for us the album was already released when we caught up with Mike before the soundcheck in the cosy dining room of the beautiful Dutch venue Lucky & Co in Rijssen. This allowed Erik and I to delve deeper into matters such as the production and the lyrics, which Mike wrote for this album, with Jeroen van der Wiel, our new Graphic “Lay-Outer” popping in a question or two about the artwork. We also touched on the criticism that this album received upon its release by some of the press and on the Internet. Besides discussing the new Dream Theater album there was time enough to let Mike share his thoughts on the latest Transatlantic DVD, the recent Neal Morse Tour and the upcoming Dream Theater Tour amongst other things.

E: Congratulations on the new album.

MP: Thank you.

E: Actually, at first we were kind of disappointed.

MP: In what way?

E: Well, because of the numerous Metallica influences, but afterwards the album starts to grow on you and now I have to admit that I really like it. Especially Honor Thy Father, that’s a killer song. So what is the media reaction to Train Of Thought so far?

MP: I don’t know because we were very tight with the security, so there Were very little media reviews in advance. I think they are going to start to happen from now on. The only thing I can gauge is the reaction of the fans so far. It seems like, that in the first couple of days, it was just too much for the fans to take. Everyone was bitching and complaining about this and that and now, as the days go by, people are getting passed the initial shock of how heavy it is and are now able to listen to it for what it is. They are now able to understand and enjoy it. I think that this is just the way it’s going to be with this album. It is so radically heavier than anything we have done and a lot of fans are going to be caught off guard by it, so it will take a little time for everyone to digest but as time goes on people will begin to love it more and more. All of our albums have a lot packed in, it is impossible to digest it in one sitting. I have seen a lot of people saying: “I’ve listened to it once and it’s crap and I can’t listen to it again”, it’s their loss.

D: Well, I think that Train Of Thought is definitely a grower, I had a similar experience when Metallica’s Ride The Lightning came out. The first song I heard was ‘For Whom The Bells Toll’ (on national radio!!!) and all I could think off was “Fuck, this is no speed metal!!!” However that album grew more and more with each listening.

MP: I remember the day when Ride The Lightning came out, as that was the same day that I got my driver’s license. The first thing I did when I got my driver’s license was that I drove to the store and bought that album and yes there are a tremendous number of Metallica influences on Train Of Thought, but like with the whole ‘Blackened controversy’ (on This Dying Soul), it’s just a five sixteenth note in the same note. Granted, it sounds like it, but the riff underneath is completely different, the time signature is different, there are 3 parts going on vocally. You can pinpoint anything on anybody’s album. I can listen to Images And Words or When Dream And Day Unite and say the same thing. You put on a riff from The Killing Hand and I would say: “Oh, that part reminds me of Rush or this part reminds me of Yes”.

E: Did you discuss this in the studio with each other, because the Blackened example in This Dying Soul is the most obvious one.

MP: The vocals came much later, so the only people who heard that particular part were John, James and myself and even we didn’t pick up on it, nobody said anything, but then again, I don’t think those guys are that familiar with Metallica’s Blackened. If you look at any of our writing charts or from the history of the band, it is always going to be like “Okay, this is the ‘Metallica section’ or this is the ‘Rush section”‘. It is inevitable, especially in my case... I listen to so much music, that I can compare any piece of music to something else. The same goes for Transatlantic or OSI... or indeed anything else I’ve been a part of. I have this “library” in my head, so when I hear two notes back to back and I’m like... (snaps his fingers) “Oh, this part is from the 1970’s Traffic album John Barleycorn Must Die”. Sometimes our influences are more obvious than others, but it’s not like we’re stealing or ripping off someone else’s style.

E: Another point of criticism from the people on the Internet is the production. Again you and John were the producers. Did you guys ever considered someone else to do the production?

MP: No, this is the way we’re most comfortable working. The last time we worked with a producer (Falling Into Infinity) was a complete disaster. I mean... Take Away My Pain... I can’t listen to the album version of that song. That’s a case of where the lyrics are some of the most emotional ever written and in the background it sounds like a trip to Disneyland! What the fuck happened to that song?! I can’t listen to that!!! And then you have You Not Me... or You Or Me or whatever the hell it’s called with Desmond Child. I mean, Lines In The Sand, Burning My Soul, all these songs were changed!!! We’re not a band like Bon Jovi who needs a producer to come in and shape our music to fit what is popular or what goes on radio. That’s not what Dream Theater is about. Nobody knows more about what a Dream Theater album should be like, than us, so there’s no reason to have an outside producer. I think it’s good to have an outside engineer and an outside mixer, which we have in both Doug Oberkircher and Kevin Shirley.

D: In our previous interview, you mentioned that Dream Theater would rather have had Andy Wallace mix Train Of Thought than Kevin Shirley...

MP: Yes, especially with an album like this, we felt that somebody like Andy Wallace could probably have done a great job, but I think that Kevin Shirley ended up with an equally tremendous mix. I have to give a lot of credit to John (Petrucci). We were there all the way through the mixing sessions and John is very into the sonic-side and he was also very concerned that the album shouldn’t sound like a typical Kevin Shirley mix. In fact, Kevin did an initial mix for As I Am weeks earlier, before the actual mix, so that the label could hear what the new album was about, but it didn’t end up on the album because it sounded too much like everything else he’d mixed. When we went into the album, John and I spent a lot of time re-creating the drum or guitar sounds from Disturbed or Mudvayne or some other similar bands mixed by Andy Wallace, so that the sound of our album was shaped more in that direction. I think that’s what we needed for this album. I am not entirely sure if Kevin was the right man for some of our more diverse albums, like Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence, but when it comes to the heavy powerful stuff, I think that Kevin is great...

E: What I really like about the album is that, although it’s heavy, you’re still able to hear every single instrument...

D: To be honest I was a bit worried that this album would suffer from the same sound as Iron Maiden’s Dance Of Death, which sounds, to me, somewhat ‘compressed’ but just as Erik said, it’s heavy but also very open, you can clearly hear John Myung’s parts.

MP: It was a conscious decision to bring the bass up, that was something I was concerned about because with an album that is this heavy and is so guitar, drums and bass-driven, it was important to bring John Myung more up in the mix.

E: I also heard that this album will be re-released as an audio-DVD in 5.1 mix.

MP: Yeah, we hope so. Kevin spent another week in the studio remixing the album into a 5.1 mix. The label paid for the sessions, so they probably want to release it, hopefully somewhere in 2004 but it all depends on whether the album sells well enough, because there’s a limited audience for such a release, I think.

E: Train Of Thought is already ‘album of the month’ in Holland’s leading rock and metal magazine Aardschok (and it also turns out to be ‘album of the year’ in that same magazine; ed.), so let’s keep our fingers crossed. More about the production of the album, how much is this album considered to be a ‘John Petrucci / Mike Portnoy effort’ instead of a ‘Dream Theater effort’?

MP: It’s the same as it’s ever been. It’s a ‘Dream Theater effort’ that has probably a very big helping of John and I directing it. It’s not a ‘new’ formula. Everyone thinks that since John and I have the producer’s names on the record, suddenly the formula has changed. Like I said, it’s the same as it’s always been.

D: Because of this, some ‘fans’ started to ‘bash’ you in public on the Internet, saying that you have become ‘arrogant’ and stuff...

MP: ....*sigh*... well... I guess that’s just the way it is...

D: You even replied to these accusations on the forum and handled it very well by saying that if it wasn’t for you, there wouldn’t be any Fan Club CDs, Official Bootlegs etc.

MP: Well... I spend my life overseeing everything that the band does and usually that’s the kind of stuff that makes Dream Theater ‘favourable’ for the fans but somehow, because I end up doing it, I take all the criticism for it as well. I guess you can say the same thing about Metallica, most of their fans ‘hate’ Lars for being...

D & E: You got that right!!! (laughs)

MP: ... well, maybe they ‘hate’ him for other reasons... :-) ... but as far as the music goes, for Dream Theater, it’s the same as it’s always been. It’s not all of a sudden the ‘John and Mike-show’. Jordan made some huge contributions to this album, even on the parts which aren’t that keyboard driven. He had a huge amount of shaping on this album musically and the same goes for John Myung. Everybody is bringing their personality to the table. Still every band needs a leader or two...

E: And what about James? Was he in the studio when you guys were recording the music?

MP: No, not when we were recording but he was there during the whole writing process. To be honest, it didn’t change the formula, it was still just the four of us writing the music. James didn’t really contribute to the writing sessions, but it was real important to have him there, you know all the five of us as a unit in the same room. We felt more like a five-piece band instead of the four of us plus one and I think that it was also good for James to be there. He could see how we wrote and was more ‘connected’ to the music then before. I think it worked very well.

E: Train Of Thought starts with the outro of Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence (which started with the outro of Metropolis Pt 2: Scenes From A Memory). Is this a new trend?

MP: Well, we’ll see how long it lasts, but for now we all like this idea very much. Thus far no other band has done this before. I got the idea from Van Halen’s Women And Children First. This album ends with a great new riff and then fades away. It seemed to me, when I was a kid, that they would open their next album with that very same riff but they didn’t!!! They didn’t start Fair Warning that way and I was: “Why didn’t they do that? They blew it!!!”

E: About This Dying Soul, did you already have the intention to make it a sequel to The Glass Prison, when you wrote The Glass Prison?

MP: Yes, I had this master plan already, when I was writing the lyrics for The Glass Prison I knew it would end up with twelve parts.

E: Twelve parts?!? So the story isn’t finished yet?

MP: Each part is based on the twelve steps you have to follow when you are at the AA (Alcoholics Anonymous; ed.) Every one of those sections is written specifically on those twelve AA steps.

D: How are you doing now without alcohol these days?

MP: Three and a half years now and still going strong (proudly shows his AA-hanger). I couldn’t have done it without those steps, so This Dying Soul is just part four and five, so there’s seven more parts to come :-)

E: About the other lyrics on the new album, some of them are very personal, direct and aggressive; was this to fit the music or...

MP: Yes, absolutely to fit the music... You can’t have music like this and have lyrics about love and happiness, the music sort of dictated the aggression of the lyrics.

D: Especially the song Honor Thy Father. It’s very direct and to the point... It’s about your stepfather, isn’t it?

MP: Yes... It’s a direct hate-song towards my stepfather. I want to make it clear that it isn’t for my real father, Howard Portnoy. I have an amazing relationship with my father. He has been so close to me my whole life and I love him dearly. My only concern is that people would misread the lyrics and would think it was directed at him. That’s why I put the lines “Don’t cross the crooked step” and “You pretended I was your own, and believed that you loved me, but were always threatened by some invisible blood line that only you could see” in that song so that the people who read those lyrics, hopefully understand that we’re not blood related. There are very few people that I’m angry with or hold a grudge against, but he’s one of the few... It was also very therapeutic to write these lyrics, because I don’t know if I’m ever going to meet or deal with him again but it was my way of getting all the crap off my chest and to finally close this chapter of my life, whether he ever hears it or not. Knowing him and how selfish he is and unaware of anybody else in this family, he probably won’t even know that this song is directed at him.

D: I must say that James did a tremendously great job on that song...

MP: Well, I already said this in another interview, where they asked me about the processing and the vocals, amongst others, when you have a Mudvayne-like riff, you cannot have a “Steve Perry-clean-sweet-vocal” sitting on top of it. It was very important with the music and lyrics being so aggressive, that the vocals would fit the music as well. Some of the songs where I wrote the lyrics for, like Honor Thy Father and This Dying Soul have a lot of those rap-feel-sections and I see a lot of people complaining about that on the Internet but really... what kind of vocal-melody can you write to a section like this... (here Mike hums the rap-section of This Dying Soul which starts at 3:41) ...I mean... you want to have a melody that goes and fits with the music. I’m really happy and proud that James is so open to try these different approaches to his singing as well. James is really working on his voice. He started taking vocal lessons again before this year’s US summer tour and that has really paid off.

E: Who came up with the idea to use special effects on his voice?

MP: Generally, whoever wrote the lyrics for a particular song has those effects already in mind. I demoed myself singing This Dying Soul and Honor Thy Father and John Petrucci has done this as well for his songs. In those cases I already had these effects demoed with my voice.

E: So your vocal lines are pretty much the same as those from James?

MP: Yes, basically but, of course, he does it much better than me. But the phrasings, the melodies and the effects – those ideas are already pretty much established when writing lyrics and their melodies.

E: Okay, with this album containing some ‘nu-metal’ influences, do you already have in mind what the next album will sound like?

MP: No, we have no idea...

D: Some people were afraid that Dream Theater have gone in a completely nu (pun intended:-)) direction with this album...

MP: Noooo, all that I can say is that it will be totally different from Train Of Thought, as much as Train Of Thought was different from Six Degrees and Six Degrees was different from Scenes... and so on. We never repeat ourselves. Granted, we have our style and we have our sound but it will always be something different.

E: The last time we did an interview, you labelled this album as a ‘classic metal album’. Now that it’s been released, do you still feel the same way about it?

MP: I’m 1000% satisfied with the result. I think we completely succeeded in what we set out to make, so, yes...

E: And for the rest of the band as well?

MP: Yes, absolutely... totally. Even Jordan!!! Everybody is saying: “What’s Jordan thinking about this album?” But in fact, Jordan is ecstatic about the new album. There’s a lot of keyboard subtleties on this album. As I Am has probably the least amount of keyboards in it but for the rest of the album there’s keyboards all over the place, though it’s all been done in a heavy way.

E: Did you guys record the album differently compared to the other albums?

MP: It was all composed together and then it was tracked separately. The way we made this record is the same way we’ve made all the earlier albums, where we wrote the songs beforehand, in the rehearsal studio, with all the amps turned on and then we went into the studio and recorded each instrument separately. First we did all the drums, then the guitars, then the bass, the keys and finally the vocals. As you may know Scenes From A Memory and Six Degrees were written in the studio with headphones on and we were doing a lot of experimentation with Pro Tools. Also, for those albums, we did one song at a time and not just one instrument at a time. We did one song, wrote it and then recorded it before moving on, to give each song its own personality. We felt that with this album, each song doesn’t need its own personality, the entire album needed a personality. We actually wanted those songs to have a common sound and feel from start to finish, so this time no headphones, but real amps, because we wanted to give this album some sort of ‘live-feel’. Even the production is totally stripped down. There’s no six separate tracks of keyboards, guitars or drums that are being sped up or guitars that are being moved back through a ‘Leslie’ as on Six Degrees. That was great for that album, but for Train Of Thought we wanted to sound like a live band; here’s the guitars, here’s the bass, here’s the drums, here’s the keyboard and vocals and that’s it!

J: Regarding the artwork for Train Of Thought. Why did you guys use photos by Jerry Uelsmann and not shoot some unique pictures for the cover?

MP: Well to begin with, I pictured the sleeve for this record in black and white, with the aspect on the lack of colour because the musical direction was so dark. Then, a fan actually emailed me this artist’s website and I just followed the link he sent me and I was like; “Holy shit, this is intense stuff!!!” It turns out that this Jerry Uelsmann is an old guy who’s been around since the sixties and has books published and all but the whole look reminds me of the best work by Storm Thorgerson. It just had the look that we had in mind for this album. The tone was just perfect. So I had the art directors at Elektra investigate the possibilities of working with Jerry Uelsmann, but he has retired and he doesn’t produce any new work, but we were able to use any of his gallery work. So we went through hundreds of his photos and found some that we felt tied in with the lyrics and we’re grateful to utilise the work of someone who’s so incredibly talented. it will be the only time we will work with him because his work is solely appropriate for this record.

J: I was very surprised with it because it’s so different compared to your other records...

MP: Well Six Degrees was also very different... I think that the album was so experimental, the cover needed to express that. The artwork for that album is just colours and stuff everywhere, you know... abstract craziness but it was fitting for that type of record. With Scenes From A Memory we had a layout which was more like a Broadway-show layout, with the different acts and the different characters. We just don’t want to be tied in with just one look for every album. I think it’s good that the music dictates the look for the cover.

E: Okay, something else: you did a contest on the Internet, where bands could send in their own interpretation of the song Stream Of Consciousness (before Train Of Thought was released), based on the so called ‘writing reference sheets’ for this particular song. Have you already listened to any of the contenders?

MP: I popped in just three of them, just out of curiosity but we haven’t had time to listen to them as a band. At the moment every one of us is on different schedules. At this point it’s very likely that we will be together as a band when the rehearsals start for the new tour. We have to deal with them then but still, there are fifty entries, each running for like ten minutes (you do the math on that :-)), so it seems that we dug ourselves into a hole with this one! We should have done a contest for Vacant instead of this one. (laughs)

D: Regarding the upcoming Train Of Thought 2004 Tour, can we expect the same sort of surprises, like the ones featured during the last tour, such as Master Of Puppets and The Number Of The Beast sets?

MP: From now on, when we do two nights in a city, we will do a surprise set. it will be tradition! The albums have already been picked. There’s going to be one for America, one for Europe and one for Japan.

D: So, Japan is going to get a different album?

MP: Yes! Like I said, wherever we play two nights in a row...

E: You’re going play to Osaka twice in April...

MP: Indeed and for now, it’s looking like they’re going to be the first who gets a “surprise set” for this tour. The American dates haven’t been booked yet, but that’s probably going to be in March. I’ m really hoping that there’s going to be some two night stands for that leg of the tour, because I really enjoy doing those sets.

D: About this tour you’re doing right now with Neal Morse, with him being a ‘new born Christian’ and all, what are your personal feelings about this?

MP: I don’t have a religious meaning in any direction. I’m not a religious person, in fact, I have always been kind of anti-religion. I’ve always been bothered by organised religion but on the other hand, I feel that everyone is free to believe in any God they want to believe in. As a matter of fact, a big part of the AA is believing in God and a higher power and doing his will and not your own, so I have a lot of these beliefs but I’m not a Christian. Nevertheless, I’m fully supportive of Neal’s message. It’s Neal’s passion and life. As you might know, everybody on this tour is a Christian except for me, so every day before the show there’s a prayer going on in the dressing room and I have to be very careful... erm... I can’t be the normal Mike Portnoy... because I curse a lot. But hey, I think it’s good. It’s a good influence on me too because it’s all positive stuff and there are some major ‘good vibes’ between the guys in the band but it’s still not the world I live in. Let me put it this way ; Neal is doing this tour and album for the love of God, I’m doing this tour and album for the love of Neal! For me it’s all about the music and being able to support Neal with whatever his message is because I love Neal as a songwriter, as an artist, as a musician and as a friend!

D: How’s this tour coming along?

MP: Great! This tour has been fun. We’ve done two shows so far and it’s a very emotional experience, even if you’re not a Christian or just not into the lyrics. It’s hard not to feel the emotion that Neal is feeling on stage. The last time in London, Neal stopped the show and went into a speech about how his daughter was dying and how she was healed by God. I don’t know if he’ll repeat that again (in fact he did during both the Rijssen and Tilburg shows; ed.) but it’s all very emotional. I think this album is incredible and I totally loved playing it and besides that, it is a whole new me! I love to be in the background for a change! I’m trying to stay away from all the attention. I want the focus to be totally on Neal. I read a review from the London show and the reviewer thought that I was pissed off or something like that during that show. C’mon, I love to do this kind of thing but I don’t want to take away the attention from Neal, it’s ‘his gig !!! Neal originally wanted to have the same set up as Transatlantic for the drums but that would only draw away the attention from Neal. Also, some of the drums are very simple and I love playing it that way. It’s not that I want to do that full time, but to do so once in a while is a nice change of pace.

D: How was the show attendance in the UK?

MP: Maybe 400 people, not so big but it was good. I think this is much better because it’s more intimate this way. There are moments in the shows where it is so quiet and so dynamic that you hope that there’s not a heckler in the audience who is going to ruin the moment by shouting; “Play some Transatlantic!!!” or “Go back to Spock’s Beard!!!”. I think that with just a couple of hundred people per gig, everyone is more tied in and much more respectful. If you have more than, like a thousand people in the audience, you’re going to have people shouting and stuff, so it’s better this way.

E: What are your thoughts about the Live In Europe DVD from Transatlantic?

MP: I have mixed feelings. I wish that I had been more involved. There is some editing and choice in certain shots, which send me fucking nuts!!! I mean, the first verse of Golden Slumbers, where Neal is singing, there is a shot of me yelling at the drum tech (our faithful ‘Eagle Eye’ Al Muirden; ed.) to throw a stick back!!! I mean, what’s that all about!?! They’ve spent four days editing that DVD!!! I could have done that in one day and improved it 100%!!!

D: I’m guessing that there weren’t always the right shots available for certain moments...

MP: Well, yeah. I know from editing Dream Theater videos, that you don’t always have the right camera angles you want but in the case of the Golden Slumbers-shot, they could’ve used the ‘whole stage’-shot!!! So, this particular shot will always bother the hell out of me. Well, I chose not to be involved with this DVD but this is what happens if I’m not involved with it. Do you now understand why I always choose to be involved with everything?! Because of that, I’m such a control freak. In this case, I kind of chose to stay out of it and in the end, I still think it’s a great souvenir of that tour and for the most part, it looks and sounds great. I’m happy that it’s out there.

E: Any comments on your Led Zeppelin tribute band Hammer Of The Gods?

MP: It was a lot of fun! It was exactly as I’d hoped it would be. I kind of wished that the New York show would come second, as with the Beatles tribute show (Yellow Matter Custard; ed.) where the headline show came second and we were more warmed up. In this case, it went the opposite way. I think we played better in Montreal but it was the shorter set. For me, Paul Gilbert was the highlight. This guy was so ridiculously well prepared, professional and on top of it. When he came into rehearsals and played the 30 minute live version of Dazed And Confused he knew every nuance down to where Jimmy Page accidentally scrapes his pickups and there’s a delay on it or when the strings on the violin bow were breaking. He even looks the same as Jimmy Page did, with the wig and the hat and he even had the double neck SG and the Les Paul guitar. Of course, there’s also Dave LaRue on bass and Daniel Gildenlöw on vocals. Well, Dave just rocks as always but Daniel had the hardest job of all. He is not a Led Zeppelin fan at all!!! He might have only known Stairway To Heaven. So for him to learn two and half hours of Led Zeppelin material and to know all the nuances that Robert Plant has vocally and visually was very hard but he did great! If you ever see the video footage we shot, you’ll be amazed at how much he looks and sounds like Robert Plant. I really had faith in Daniel, though he was really nervous...

E: I spoke with Daniel just three weeks before the Hammer Of The Gods gigs and I suggested that maybe he could use a monitor with the lyrics displayed, because he was like; “Oh my God, all those lyrics!!!”

MP: Well yeah but he did great, in fact he was the key factor for me. If he was unavailable I don’t think I would have gone ahead with it because there are very few people that I could think of who can do a “Robert Plant”. Plant was so unique and had this incredibly high range that only Daniel could come close too. But still, it was all great... Tama built me a cool John Bonham-kit, which was also great. Hopefully we can do something with the tapes and share it with the rest of the world. We recorded multi-tracks at the B.B. King venue (New York) but the multi tracks from the first set didn’t come out as we hoped, so most likely we will combine audience recordings with the soundboard tapes. As soon as we have a decent document from that night, we will release it.

E: Any other projects for you in the near future?

MP: Erm... you know... my focus is now on Dream Theater. 2003 has been a very busy year for me. There were six albums out during 2003 with me playing, so next year will hopefully be just the Dream Theater tour and no albums. It’s not my intention to constantly have a million different projects, they just fall into my lap. The Hammer Of The Gods thing came about because of the Montreal Drum festival and they asked me to do it. The Beatles thing came about because Modern Drummer magazine asked me. The John Arch EP came about because John asked me. The Testimony album came about because Neal asked me. Like I said, they just fall into my lap but if they seem worthy and I have the time available, I’ll do them. To be honest, I’d love to have some time off and just focus on Dream Theater!

Denis Schoen and Erik Hulsegge